James O’Brien and the Carl Beech witch-hunt

'Hate the Carl Beech story. We gave his allegations against dead politicians a lot of coverage on the show & it turns out he was bullshitting everyone. But from Rotherham to Westminster to the BBC, telling abuse survivors that they'll be believed still seems the right thing to do.'

'Our view is he's absolutely to be taken seriously, despite the extraordinary things, this extraordinary story he tells, and that's our view. We've obviously done a lot of work over many, many months – if you like, a due diligence exercise. And I can I think I'm not revealing too much to say that the police share our view.'

'Although, of course it does add weight to the to these suspicions – they're becoming much more than suspicions – of high-level conspiracy. The higher the level of the criminal, the higher the level of the conspiracy it goes.'

'My guest, Mark Watts, whose organisation Exaro News have been, I think I can say, schooling some of the better-established media organisations in how to pursue this sort of story.'

James O’Brien: There's a sense, this overused phrase in the modern world, of 'the mainstream media', but but it does... does it surprise you that that the momentum still, it still sort of needs injections of of enthusiasm from outside? It still isn't dominating front pages or securing splashes, so to speak? Mark Watts: Well, yeah, that's right. Of course, it has had a lot of attention. But it clearly should be getting more because this, I mean, I've been in this studio before and said to you in my view, this is Britain's biggest political post-war scandal. James O’Brien: And every time you come in, it's got bigger. Mark Watts: Exactly. James O’Brien: And we will continue to do so Mark Watts. Well, I hope you will continue to visit us and share the fruits of your sterling, sterling work. I really do. Exaro News is the website you need to visit to find out more about what they're doing and indeed to hear more from the absolutely heartbreaking encounter with Nick. You’re listening to James O’Brien on LBC.

'It gives me a great deal of satisfaction to see many other areas of the media now devoting something like the amount of attention that should have been devoted to these accusations and allegations from the very start.'

'David Cameron has agreed to open the records of the Conservative whip's office to let investigators hunt for evidence of historic child abuse because if I think if I had to pinpoint the sense or the kicking off point for many of us thinking “Crikey maybe this is actually one of those stories that sounds like a conspiracy theory but turns out not to be...”’

James O’Brien: ‘‘With all the manpower and facilities at the disposal of organisations like the BBC and Sky why has it taken a relative minnow to expose this evil in the establishment? Surely this speaks volumes about the mainstream media." Could briefly answer that, if you want – you're the minnow. Mark Watts: Well it's a very good question and you know this scandal raises questions about a lot of institutions in Britain. Basically every institution you can imagine – central government, the Home Office... local government, the police, the criminal justice system and, yes, the media. It raises big questions about each and every one of them. James O’Brien: I hope that constitutes an answer. I really do… "It's horrendous that you are the only news outlet to be championing this investigation, I salute you."

James O’Brien: Just if you would and you don't have to of course share your thoughts on the conversation we were having just before you joined us about the Home Affairs Select Committee and their call for anonymity to be extended to people accused of sex crimes in the same week in which it's become increasingly likely that MPs past or present or both may well find themselves accused of the sex crimes you've been investigating. Is it to you a complete coincidence this? Mark Watts: Well it's certainly a coincidence, and journalistic nous tells you not to believe in accidental coincidences. It raises enormous questions indeed. Of course parliamentarians, MPs and Lords, former MPs and so on are under the spotlight on this story. And it is remarkably convenient that this argument has been reheated.

Mark Watts: What we're doing really, we at Exaro is we're gradually and slowly, bit by bit as you say, banging the hammer against the dam, exposing the truth. And part of that is trying to force the system to work, try and make the criminal justice system do what we all outside of it might think it's supposed to be doing. And I think it's important to realise that in the same ways there are journalists who try their best despite you know much of the... much of the institutional problems of mainstream media. The same applies elsewhere it applies in the police.

Mark Watts: They [former police/special branch officers] are worried about being prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act. James O'Brien: Losing their pension. Losing their... Mark Watts: Losing their liberty losing their, you know, losing everything basically but their lives perhaps, or maybe even that.

'It's like a Pandora's box.'

'If you're just waking up, as hopefully the prime minister is, who described it not that long ago as a conspiracy theory, everything you needed to avoid making an idiotic intervention like that can be found at the Exaronews.com website.'

'We turn our attention next to a story that thankfully no longer feels as though it's, this is one of the few areas where it's getting the attention it deserves. And if I feel like that, having discussed it with you at length over the course of the last 18 months, goodness knows how Mark Watts feels - the editor of Exaro News – who at one point seemed to be the only people paddling upstream against the accusations of conspiracy theories and false allegations when investigating child sex abuse at the very highest levels of our society. Mark is kind enough to break off from his investigations and join us on a fairly regular basis to discuss developments.'

'But not, not on this occasion.'

'Again there seems to be a whiff of, well, at the very best obfuscation and avoidance, Mark. I mean words like “cover-up” spring to mind. Words like “conspiracy” spring to mind, but certainly the absence of transparency is clear.'

James O’Brien: It's the first time perhaps that clarity has emerged on on... because I've spent a lot of time when you're not here asking people why or how these cover-ups, if that turns out to be the case, could occur. And of course the answer's always been because it potentially goes so high. So in terms of why would anybody now not want to shine a light into this because if it was being undertaken by such prominent people then it's not just a question of covering up the alleged crimes, it's the covering-up of the cover-up of course which explains why in the modern world people would be reluctant for the truth to come out. Because you know someone who covered up in the 1970s in a department that was still there in the 1980s ended up being a mentor to someone there in the 1990s, they’re still there now. It would take such epic effort to keep a lid on a scandal like this that it does implicate for want of a better word, an or the establishment. Mark Watts: Basically what we are witnessing here is the wheels coming off the British establishment.

'It goes very, very high, clearly, and it's very, very extensive in terms of the number of people in positions of power who are part of this. And it is an extraordinary cover-up that has been sustained on this.'

'Well I think at root here there are people in the establishment who realise the wheels are coming off and they really want to stop this process of the discovery of the truth of what's gone on. I mean bear in mind that just look at Exaro. There is overwhelming evidence that serious crimes were covered up by the state, perpetrated by people in positions of power. There is no doubt about that. And of course there are people whose interests are served by stopping that, by deterring further witnesses from coming forward for example… The fact is I am absolutely sure that the public is in a different place here. The public wants the truth and it has to be said the media overall has failed to deliver it for decades.’

'What you stumbled upon was a cogent, cohesive victim, prepared to go on the record and make complaints.'

'Well I think one of the things about this scandal as more and more emerges as inevitably it will because I think the dam is broken. One of the parts of the establishment quite frankly that will be in the dock is the mainstream media because it collectively failed to uncover this at the time, although I know that there were journalists here and there, even very senior journalists who were making some attempts to do that. But overwhelmingly there was a failure and more recently, as I say, when Exaro came on the scene and as we started to uncover evidence we found there was resistance still in a lot of mainstream media outlets.'

'We’re a fickle species, us humans. We are easily distracted and while it's clear that feelings on this issue run very, very deep, people hoping that they go away still have a dog in the race. I mean there's still a kind of a chance of things grinding to a standstill especially when you see parts of the establishment now engaging in this narrative of witch-hunt, narrative of smearing the reputation of a man who's not here to defend himself which is effectively saying to accusers “Shut up and know your place”.'

James O’Brien: You know I could get the phones to ring on that. People ringing in to tell me they think that these people are looking for compensation, they're just seeking attention, they're just looking for... Mark Watts: They may think that... James O’Brien: It's a bizarre place to arrive at though. It’s a strange thought to have when you're studying these sort of stories when you're looking at these sort of issues and prominent newspaper journalists still columnists still end some of their coverage of this by saying 'and Jimmy Saville is still dead' as if that means that the children he raped don't deserve to have their stories heard. Mark Watts: Well I mean if you're the kind of journalist that thinks that the truth of this should be left hidden well I mean quite frankly you're an idiot. Why on earth are you a journalist? James O’Brien: I’m not going to argue with you. I am however going to have to call time on the conversation, Mark Watts. Once again I feel we could have carried on for days. But you’ll be back. You're one of the very tiredest men in journalism at the moment I think. The sleep of the just.'